In 2001, a group of people with all different styles of developing software came together in a cabin in Utah to find commonalities in all their individual styles. They already knew that traditional, waterfall approached project couldn’t cut it anymore, but what would? The Agile Manifesto was written in that cabin. A manifesto that would have a massive impact on the way we develop products.
Arie van Bennekum, part of that group. joins us today to discuss how they got to their agreement in the first place, what he feels is the state of it after 20 years, and how to move forward.
What you’ll discover in this show:
– The manifesto is a fundamental set of principles when working with business agility
– Agility has no end state. But we’re also nowhere near where we could be.
– Pushing the status quo helps to make an agile transformation stick
Arie van Bennekum
Thought leader at Wemanity Group and IFAAI
Arie is a pragmatist who accommodates his pragmatism in structure, discipline and common sense. He is not afraid to enter untrained paths and take risks. He has done this since his first days in health care, later in the armed forces, and he continues to do so today. This has led to his special position as co-author of the Agile Manifesto. In the course of his Agile years Arie has become an expert in the field of business transformations towards Agile on the basis of strategic objectives and link this to very concrete objectives. He focuses on delivering value, bringing efficiency and creating support among stakeholders, through role and chain clarity based on the business model and the work packages.
The intellectual property IATM is basis for this. Arie strongly believes in leading on the
basis of exemplary behavior and from that perspective is also constantly
working on creating/strengthening an Agile (customer-oriented) culture within
Wemanity. Moreover, within Wemanity’s culture, there is a strong focus on
continuous development of professionals and organization, optimal performance
based on knowledge sharing and feedback and clear task and division of roles,
for an optimal value delivery to Wemanity’s customers.
Sander Dur (host)
Scrum Master, Agile Coach, trainer, and podcast host for ‘Mastering Agility”
Sander Dur is a business agility enthusiast, with a passion for people. Whether it’s healthy product development, agile leadership, measurement, or psychological safety, Sander has the drive to enable organizations to the best of their abilities. He is an avid article writer, working on a book about Scrum Mastery from the Trenches, and is connecting listeners with the most influential people in the industry.
The Agile manifesto:
Sander Dur 0:04
Hi guys, welcome back to this week’s episode of the mastering agility podcast a podcast series that aims to inspire you and others by bringing in the best people of the business. Again, please go to the website of masteringagility.org subscribe to our newsletter. Stay up to date with the latest information when it comes to this podcast as well as claiming that opti learn discount code for all their scrum to the work related courses. I would also love to hear from you what you like about this podcast what you dislike what we can do better, what can you guess you would like to hear? I would just love to hear from you. And you can do that by leaving us a review on pod chaser. The link is included in the show notes. Now going back to bringing in the best people of the business today. We have someone that has been fundamental for the ways that have we have been working with in this Agile world aren’t even Bennigan’s, one of the founding people of the Agile Manifesto is joining us today to talk about the current state of the Agile Manifesto. It has been designed and put together in 2001, with some ideas in mind. And I’m curious how he feels that we are currently doing compared to the idea when they founded it when they wrote it together in that cabin. Let’s welcome Ali. Ali, even better, it’s an honor to have you here today. Really appreciate you making the time for us. How are you doing?
Arie van Bennekum 1:28
I’m doing very good. Thank you very much. You know, there’s there’s a lot of things going on in the Agile world. So I have even in the in the COVID times. I am very, very busy. And also I’m happy that I see sort of sort of things, improving in terms of travel, because honestly speaking, when it comes to my life pre COVID. And at the moment, I miss my travel, I travel a bit at the moment, you know, I’ve been doing, let’s say since the summertime since summer holidays, I’ve been to places like Germany and France and Belgium, Armenia. But my life pre COVID was a little bit wild. That was from China, to Argentina, from South Africa to Sweden. So I miss it a bit and also you have to realize that you build friends. So I have people that I didn’t see for two and a half years now.
Sander Dur 2:19
Yeah, that’s tough. What do you what do you think from your experience is the biggest lesson that we that you personally have when it comes to COVID and pre COVID?
Arie van Bennekum 2:29
Well, the lesson that I got out of it. So I have to be honest, I have a little bit of history in the healthcare. And I always thought that something like this would happen. But I thought always it would be a bacteria that would be resistant to antibiotics, or something like this. And I never got to the virus. I remember because COVID is a SaaS virus, and we had a Sourcefire is already going on in 2002 that we had issues there. So something was about to happen. That was not really my learning. But what you what you can see is that the way we engage, and like you and I are doing right now the remote thing, right is is is something that has, of course now showing the truth. So I was already working like this, because I do international transformations with organizations that have people in multiple countries. So you have a lot of this kind of work. It’s not exactly we’re not all working from home in that kind of situation. But it’s people from different business locations. But you know that the video conferencing as connection to collaborate still works. But what it taught me, maybe I should say, what made me aware of is I should travel less because of my carbon footprint. Yeah, I am afraid I have a carbon footprint that you won’t like. Pretty sure. Yeah. And I’m at least I can say I don’t like it myself. I got sucked into this world. And I sort of took it for granted and COVID made me sit back and I will travel because I have my friends and I think I can travel and I should travel. But not the way I did it. I don’t. One of the most idiot travels I had was two examples. From here to Lebanon, from Lebanon to Ghana, from Ghana to Amsterdam. Wait for a couple of hours jump on a plane to Romania.
Sander Dur 4:22
Arie van Bennekum 4:24
Yeah. And another one is that was literally pre COVID I think it was November. I don’t know what it is. You’re going from here to China from China to Amsterdam back wait at the airport catch midnight fly to Moscow arrived at 430 in the morning cape, take a couple of hours and do a three hour talk for a group of 75 managers plane and go I mean, allow stock to a business connection. And he said it I had clients that expected me to fly for a meeting of now to New York. And that’s I think that’s the thing that we all learned, I think people like me should now have learned to stand up against is no, this is what we don’t do anymore. And also, I think there’s a lot of more awareness. And I think when it comes to, to the learning for the rest of the world, being aware that a lot of things can be done remote, it’s not 100%. Alternative for, for being on site, right. But we can do a lot, a lot more remote than we ever thought.
Sander Dur 5:29
Yeah, but it’s a good in introspective discussion you want to have, because this impacts you and your personal motivation. I mean, this relates back to Daniel Pink’s drive as well, your your purpose and your feeling of autonomy and those kinds of things. Not being able to travel takes away and chips away a bit on that as well. So we’re really having a good hard look into yourself what you want to achieve and how you want to achieve its stuff. Speaking of learnings you were part of, you’re one of the founders of the Agile Manifesto, you were there when it when you guys put it together. What I’m curious about, and we’ll zoom in, into that in this discussion, is how it was put together, what your experiences, what your view is, and how we’re doing currently looking back. So what the current state is of the Agile Manifesto. First, take us back to the moment that you guys came together and figure this is what we see is a commonality.
Arie van Bennekum 6:26
Yeah, so you have to imagine that writing the manifesto is just a moment in time. There’s a whole time window before and after that were the authors of the Agile Manifesto, every one of them work differently, because we were differently from the waterfall. I remember that people said to me, why are you always, you know, so harsh on the waterfall, because you can also the combination, based off waterfall, is having Embedded Standard problems that you can’t solve, they are their period. And we are all trying to get out of it right in our own way. Because it’s not that we that we came together and said, let’s write a manifesto about how to work no, we were already working differently. So when we wrote the manifesto, we had in the room 13 different methodologies frameworks represented. And if you talk to, for example, James granting he does a lot of on your when it comes to quality of the code, where my focus was on, okay, how can I deliver it the basis failure? How can I make sure that they’re really connected with what the what the organization needs much more? So we had different angles. And we tried to find and the way we did this was explained to each other. Okay, so we all work differently. This is how I work and why. And what I like the phrase from John Curran, where he said, You know, when we went into the room, when we walked into the room, we left our egos at the door, we listened to understand instead of listening to criticize, and that’s what I miss a lot in the Agile world today. And it also means that we, we don’t have to update the Agile Manifesto at all, because we are still far from it fairly far from it. The Agile world has become a battle over certificates. The Agile world has become a group of people that deny other people’s best practices and learnings. It’s not that you that you deny other people’s thoughts, you deny what people have done for 20 or 25 years. Right. And that’s not what we mean, when we wrote the Agile Manifesto. That’s what not what we were like when we wrote the manifesto. So I think we have a long way to go still. That manifesto was a sort of a Declaration of Independence, we all work differently. This is this is it right? And I can tell you, when the Declaration of Independence, I think it was written by one guy only with a couple of people around him. But if you if you have that, that group of people writing the Declaration of Independence, now they bring in their own thoughts behind it, and why they want to have something similar than the other one, but it’s not exactly the same. So you find the commonalities. And I think that’s where we are today.
Sander Dur 9:06
Yeah, I’m curious about what you were saying you were already working differently before writing a manifesto. Yeah. What was the point that you were looking into, for instance, waterfall and figured this is not what works for me? I should do this differently. And how did you figure out what to do differently?
Arie van Bennekum 9:24
It is, I started in November 1993. On a project in a governmental organization in the Netherlands. We had like 30 people on the team 30 people full time working, I think from 30 people easily 28 externals and in May so seven months later out of the blue. Nobody ever saw that coming. One moment to the other the project was killed. And it’s literally like 1015 in the morning. You walk out of the out of the building. You standing next to your car. What am I going to do now? To this, and I remember that I felt very uncomfortable with the fact that I was part of wasting public money. And I don’t think you should waste public money ever. That doesn’t mean that projects can be stopped. But I until today, I don’t even know why.
Sander Dur 10:18
There was no communication at all?
Arie van Bennekum 10:20
No, it was like 10 o’clock, we were called into a room 1015 I stood next to my car and out of the building.
Sander Dur 10:26
That’s so disrespectful.
Arie van Bennekum 10:29
As Hell at that moment in time, I didn’t even perceive it like that, that I thought, because it’s obviously the way that people work there. This is this is the model, this is how we do this. And then on the way because I decided to go to the office, I worked for origin at the time. And I decided to go to the office. And I we had like, I don’t know exactly like 50 people working but origin was organizing what they called cells, smaller offices. And we had six managers and I spoke to five of them. And I said, I don’t want to do this anymore. And I don’t know what I want because I don’t know what’s out there. And one of them gave me maybe like one or two weeks lady gave me a call and said I got something for you. And that was rapid application development, the pilot with the Royal Navy. And it’s it was as bad as it is today. You know, you have an organization and said, Oh, we want to go Agile. So they sent people to a two day scrum training. And now we know everything we need to know. And that person has been to the scrum training needs to know and needs to guides because this person is now the expert. As I was saying thing, we were dropped into a two day training and then they go Good luck. Yeah, and two things happen. Thankfully, there was one of the guys from from another cell in the organization that offered help. Lucas Hoffman, he later on migrated to Norway. And there were a lot of things that we didn’t know, we just have to figure out. And, and there were things cold, but the information on how to do is you know, they have they were like, thin. So I, I started experimenting, right? And in that experiment motorists, the people around you, because I am very fast. And I do and I go, right. But there are people around you that are not that fast. And taking those kinds of steps get completely confused by you. Right. And I did confuse people of my own team as well. The other side is the now we get to Okay, the problem that I had when the project was killed was we waste money, and we should deliver value. This is public money. And I was able to make sure with the team, not me myself, but with the team, the way we work together to deliver value. I remembered the pilot with the Navy, there was a there was a petty officer when made some sort of Excel application of excess MDX is application. Okay, we need to replace it on a more stable platform. So let’s do this. And it only has to work for a year and a half, because then we have something really good. This is a pilot. And I was like three, four years later, I met those people. Yeah, it’s still working man would you would you guys made. So that was the good part real failure. And we got into that value, because we had the people from the business with us. And that’s so important. Because if you want to generate value, delivering the software to the to the market, in operations, doesn’t generate value. It’s only proper use that will generate value. And then it needs to be do it needs to be doing what what people need the business people need, they need to have accepted, they need to know how it works. So that close collaboration getting okay, this is what you looked in terms of failure, what kind of requirements do you need? How do they work, prototyping, simulating refining the feedback that started to shine the light, okay, this is how we get there. And then we had also the concept from the beginning, if you bring something in a new requirement, you know, change your welcome changes, right? If you bring something in, something has to go out. I mean, you cannot bucket externalities, when it’s full, it’s full. And if you bring something in, you have to take something out, if you don’t organize that taking out, then something will drop out anyway. And that’s most of the time quality, right? So I started doing my things differently in 1994, started doing those kinds of projects commercially in early 95. In 1997, because I was most of the way I worked was based on reps application development, not everything, because rapid application development has gaps. And you try to fill in those gaps. No in a in a way it helps you write and without losing all the time on stupid tollgates and sequential processes and you know that written documentation. And then in 1997, I saw a poster from the DSDM consortium, the DCM consortium was founded in 1995. And they had the nine principles.
Unknown Speaker 14:55
And literally, I thought when I saw that poster, who looked into my notes. So that was my first theme. And that’s very centered because rapid application development had gaps. You tried to fill up the gaps with just common sense, right? And not with all solutions with innovating forward within that concept of, you know, short cycled, fast feedback delivery, how can I do this. And of course, the people because the is the, the time was very UK based. Those people are also new people with common sense. So they had sort of the same kind of learnings and the same kind of practices that help them out. And I got connected in the summer of 1997, were the DSDM consortium, I think it was June that I did certification in Utrecht. That was the moment that these dem consortium also started a chapter in the Benelux I got involved in the DSDM consortium. And I got onto an international task force. I was very often working with Mary Henson, who was running the back office of the DSDM consortium. And she gave me a call one moment in time, you know, February 2001, do you have time this weekend to go to Salt Lake to represent us? Yeah, sure.
Sander Dur 16:14
There are worse places.
Arie van Bennekum 16:16
Yeah, exactly. And I, so I did my, my, my chains in 1994. And that’s the only thing why people can change, I think when you when you make the decision to change yourself, change cannot be forced upon you. And if I think for example, James granting he started in 1998, if you because that’s how he met the work of Kent Beck. And what Cunningham, you know, seemed programming and he was really interested in according to TT TDD, right as driven development. So we all at the moment, I don’t know, for everybody why we all had our moments. I was thinking a little bit in the middle song started earlier songs like that later. I don’t know. And that’s why we got together. Yeah.
Sander Dur 16:54
I think I really appreciate what you said, This is common sense. But I do feel that common sense is one of the most uncommon things at this point in time. What makes it so hard for people to think like this to be to be comfortable with change? I mean, I think it’s fundamental to most to people in general to be reluctant to change. But you seem to be very open and responsive to that change. What makes it so hard to in an organization to be able to have the holistic approach?
Arie van Bennekum 17:27
Yeah, there’s a there’s a very simple explanation for it. And that also tells you how difficult is to do this. Agile, doing Agile is simple, right? You do your dailies, your heartbeats, your retros refinement, you do visual manner to have a plan board that all look simple. But to be able to do that in the proper way, as we meant writing the manifesto with self organizing teams and welcome change. If you’re late in development, that means that change advisory boards don’t no longer exist, that means that documentation standards will change. That means that decision making processes will change. That means that the empowerment of people on the teams, your basic users, not managers, is completely different. That requires the disruptive change in the organization. That’s number one. And secondly, it’s a way of working that people never done before. Because very often you see in so called Agile organizations, that people were experiencing the waterfall, their feature teams development teams, and you wait the test, and it’s simple waterfall, what they do, where does it come from? People. You’re the old way of working is pre disk pre pre described, right? It’s written down, this is how it works. And we try to replace it by this and it’s not true. Because you know, we have like, I don’t know at the moment. 1415 1617 agile frameworks, all weather all practices, and depending on you need to cherry pick the practices that help you the most right and not taking one book. And saying, Okay, this is the truth. Now the point is, if you if you paid a lot of money for the book, you will not let other things in, because then you lose your fundament for making your money. Now the moment that the framework becomes the business model, agile is out the door, very simple. But there’s there’s even a more biological one. You know that people don’t like to leave the comfort zone 95 to 98% of the people stays in the comfort zone. We know this. But do you know why? And I was a couple of weeks ago, I was sitting on the couch watching the program called open. And there was a professor in neurology. And he said, you know, hear in the back of your head, just, let’s say behind your ears, on both sides, you have a little thing called the amygdala, the almond kernel, and what the Allman kernel does. The moment you get into a situation that you don’t know, or you’re not used to. We start feeling uncomfortable, subconsciously, it’s not a choice. It’s constantly happening. So the moment it’s an all survival mechanism, right? The point isn’t it? No transformation doesn’t kill you. The response to it is the same on top sounder realize that you have people that worked hard got into a position in the company. And now those idiots come in, and they will tell you oh no, that position no longer exists because we are self organizing teams. My one of my benefits in the whole story during writing the manifesto, but also before in 1997, I joined the company in the nets called salvation, very young company, founded in 1996, I was number 24, on the payroll. By the turn of the century, two and a half years later, after me, I joined two years, two years and nine months later, we had seven other people, and it was all autonomous growth, there was no buying companies, it was autonomous growth, we worked with self organizing teams, the concept behind it was from Ricardo Semler simple style. And we had in the beginning, one or later on to, and later on, maybe three or four people in the back office, and the only thing they did was sending invoices to clients, and paying salaries. Everything else was done in the team’s innovation, business development. Sales, contract management, delivery, HR, marketing, everything was a hiring, firing, everything was done in those teams. And I found out there how important it is that when you read the manifesto, right that you know that you should create a trust people to get the job done and create the environment for them. So they can do it. That doesn’t mean it’s perfect, but it allows people to develop take the responsibility in the going back to Daniel Pink again, to take the responsibility but we gives the gives them a massive ownership. And that’s that’s what I brought into the manifesto. So when you see things like maximizing the work not done and, and trust the people to get the job done those kind of things. That’s that’s my experience. Those are for me experience changes late enough. Yeah, I know. I know. Scrum says that you don’t change in a sprint, if there is a real good chance to make a change in the sprint I do that. You have proper agile practices for it to do. So. Why should I deliver less value if I can deliver for this in the same time to save money more? Do so? Yeah, those costs annoy me?
Sander Dur 22:22
Right? Yeah, that’s true. I mean, the sprint goal itself doesn’t change. But the scope does.
Arie van Bennekum 22:27
The goal is a value. It’s not the list of requirements, no exact it’s old school thinking?
Sander Dur 22:32
No, it is yes. Those imply that you want to continuously update also the scrum guide. And going back to the delivery of failure, how often do you see that there is a good organizational discussion and discussion, what we see as value, okay, we’re gonna deliver value, what does that mean?
Arie van Bennekum 22:53
I can tell you something that every project that I go in, and I’m not afraid to use the word project, if I go into a project, and that’s a transformation for me is project because I go in with my team. And that can be for three months, or six months, or nine months or a year or a year and a half. But I go in with my team. After one moment in time My people are done. And we make sure that the that the organization is ready to take it on themselves. Whether it’s a commercial delivery and other transformation all the same for me. I always thought asking my question what happens to your organization, if we don’t do this? What goes wrong? And I had one of my clients say to me, Ari, I am a software company. And my call the soporta, they have so many incidents, I don’t get to move to the new work, I don’t get to new deliveries to new functionalities. My clients are walking away from me, my number of incidents needs to go by 50 down by 50%. That’s a failure. You know, the client said to me, mindset, Adi I am, I’m tech company that is in a pace of change. That’s insane. Innovation is my lifeline out of this Agile transformation. I need 20% efficiency. So that I can make time for innovation because innovation is what I need. And we brought down down the lead time in the organization from 18 to 24 months to three months, we brought down the release cycle from three months to two weeks. And that was helpful. I had clients who said to me early, my number of times that I overrun, my SLA needs to go down by 80% because we’re running away, so we need to find a solution that’s value. And then the people who are in that process where the SLA is overrun will be with the developers in the team, making sure that they get the requirements out of it, they decide on it, they refine them they change them to make sure that they get the best possible value very simple.
Sander Dur 24:45
That does imply that there is there are people in the organization that understand what problem that needs to be fixed. In the beginning of this recording. You already dove into a little bit of the certification craze and agile is becoming at this point is A big buzzword. And people want to do Agile, do Agile not be agile, for the hell of it because it’s a buzzword because it’s a hype. How often do you see happening? Or do you see the argument popping up? We need to be agile or do this this framework, because we need to deliver faster, because we need to deliver more.
Arie van Bennekum 25:22
The last two lines, I don’t even need, we are going Agile, we decided to implement safe. Okay, there you go. And this is the top management, the top management says something like this, because they don’t understand. They have no clue what it means to have an agile organization. And then in that line of thinking they are supported by the big consultancy firm, because they make a massive amount of money out of it, you know, defining operating models and that kind of thing. And this is not absolutely not what we intended where we wrote the manifesto.
Sander Dur 25:55
Oh, I can imagine and save didn’t pop up that long after you guys wrote the Agile Manifesto. 2012. Right. I think yeah. 20 2011 something somewhere around that.
Arie van Bennekum 26:06
And I don’t mind the safe practices? Absolutely not. Now, it’s the interpretation. Yeah. And the moment that you make it into your only understand what Agile is when you have that. So when so certificate I had, I can I can tell you this, because it’s written down on one of the community apps that we have, where a guy gets out of a training, to renew his certification. And it was a two day training. And he was bombarded with between 250 and 300 slides. And he asked the trainer and he said, Where is my learning? How do I handle this amount of slides? And the trainer said, you know, we discovered that a two day training sells the best.
Sander Dur 26:48
Yeah, sales the best. Yeah, has nothing to do with
Arie van Bennekum 26:51
learning of the participant has nothing to do with actualization of the company, any company has nothing to do with improvement of the punishment. It’s about selling the training. Yeah. And I wish I should have done the same. I would be unhappy, but.
Sander Dur 27:10
But yeah, but that means staying close to yourself. And I think that’s only a good thing. And I agree with you, there is nothing wrong with the safe principles and the intent behind the framework. What do you think is wrong is the way that that it’s been put together on as the framework itself in this, in this part of the world, we read, we read a book or a menu or whatever, we start on the top left, and we read to the bottom right, that’s the way that we that we read. Now, if you go to do the top left of the framework of safe, it says the the enterprise so the enterprise always comes first. On the bottom on the download, there are the agile teams, and somewhere out of all that fluff, you just have to filter out where the customers and the stakeholders are. So that’s, that’s my wrongful interpretation of the of the safe.
Arie van Bennekum 27:58
i One of the things that people will do, because they have that little amygdala in the brain on both sides, is when they see a new framework, a new model, a new change, they will try to see how they can do it from their current position. Just and if you have a framework that offers you that space, then it will become just an excuse. And that’s not what we meant when we when we wrote the Agile Manifesto.
Sander Dur 28:25
No. And I think there would be a discussion itself because I think we can go with don’t go on this path for for quite a bit. But you already mentioned a couple of times that you do not you’re there are differences between what you intended when you wrote the Agile Manifesto and the current state of things what what do you feel is the current state and how we should move forward?
Arie van Bennekum 28:47
Well, the current you know, one of the things that I and I blame myself for it. I never did this kind of work exclusively in it I mean, if you make a new product, you have to market it because you can have the product at the market but if it’s not properly marketed, you know your sell your value will will be either late or not at all. So I always had that combination if I had audit trail so I have the software development teams and the non ID for audit trails for things like a marketing at the time I had technical implementation we’re all working on the same backlog. And still I get into debate rd Do you think that their job for now it is possible man, it made me wet my pants if I know what the hell is this? Right. So this is one of the big things and more and more we talk about corporate agility we start understanding it but corporate agility means that as an organization, you are able to respond to change. Right and as an organization, you accept that prescriptive doesn’t work when it comes to things like you know how how a new product or service should look like what kind of requirements should be in there. But even yesterday, I got a request and somebody said, you know, it’s not true what you say, you know, you need to, I mean, you’re for a little development all this can be, but you need to have your architecture 100%. Ready. So you define your architecture that will take you half year to year and meanwhile will deliver when they tell you if you don’t like if you don’t mind, right. So I think that’s, that’s where we are today. Very little organizations really get the value of agile working. And I think that’s where there’s a lot lot to win. There’s a lot, if you are open to the learnings of other people, there’s a lot you can win. And if you learn and if you’re bumping to problems, and if you, I mean, if you do something that you didn’t do before, of course, things go wrong, or at least are not perfect the first time. And what we tend to do we look in our brain for a solution, but we don’t have a solution, because we’ve never done it. So what we do is we implement an old solution, I call it innovating backward. And you need to get get a thought okay, so this is the, these are the values, these are the principles of the Agile Manifesto. This is my problem, how can I solve it? And ask people listen, listen to it, right. And you have you have frameworks, and their practices that are focusing more on quality, some are more focusing more on efficiency, and some are focusing more on the failure. So you can grasp from the different frameworks. And I think that’s why we need to go and I think at this moment in time, I meet a lot of clients at rd, we try to and and and it doesn’t work, help. I had one client where I made a proposal and they decided to work with another company. This other company is more like a group of freelancers not aligned. Group coaches, they have over 100 coaches on site. And the biggest problem is that the coaches are not aligned sending out different messages, and the people in the organization get completely confused, delivery almost to a standstill. And I think this is where we need to work. You know, the quality of agile coaches need to improve much more in the knowledge of multiple frameworks, so agnostic, be agnostic in your knowledge, your body of knowledge on the Agile side. And the second part of your body of knowledge is about coaching in the skills to coach. And then you have more things you can have because Agile is a paradigm shift, how do I do a paradigm shift you need to you need to understand what what it takes to make that happen. Otherwise, you just go in, and you start seeing things that might not help be helpful to the organization at all. And by the way, the other coach next year will say different things, right? So you start pulling on a rope and the team is in the middle doesn’t work. We are in that that position, we have a lot to gain. But the big thing is, of course, Agile has got traction, all over the world, pace of technology is going up of innovation and technology is going up will never slow down. You have to there’s no choice. Right?
End of trial transcript
1:20 Welcoming Arie
2:19 Lessons from COVID
5:53 The foundation of the Agile Manifesto
16:54 Embracing change
24:45 Reason for change
28:25 What we should do now